The other day a Twitter dingus tweeted at me, in what I thought was a genuine question in good faith, asking if I would like to debate the Bible with him. I didn’t even have to think about my answer. I said no. I directed him to Matt Dillahunty and Shannon Q because they are the pros and all I would muster up would likely be an enthusiastic, “nuh-uh!”
But why, GM? Why don’t you debate the Bible with believers?
The answer to this question has several tiers to it. It’s got layers like a proper tiramisu and also like my second-favourite Italian dessert, I see no reason why we shouldn't jump right in. Here are the reasons why I don’t flipping argue the Bible:
Your girl’s got shit to do.
I mean, obviously there are people out there who debate the Bible who also have shit to do, but often their shit to do is arguing the Bible. I don’t make my living at this, it’s not an income source for me, so I can’t really justify spending hours at a time arguing about one book, over and over. I’m a mom, I run a non-profit, I have a full-time job. Ain’t nobody with all that going on got time for Bible debates.
I don’t know it.
Sure, I read the Bible once during a magic mushroom trip that ended up giving me PTSD, but outside of that one time, it never played a part in my life. I never had to examine it and analyze it, not once did I have to memorize any part of it. I recall memorizing a monologue from Julius Caesar. It was a rant from Portia pleading with Brutus to just freaking talk to her already, but I’ve strayed from the point. Despite my poor, pathetic recital of Shakespeare monologues, I never had to recall one blessed word of holy scripture. I dunno shit about the Bible. Nor do I feel the need to know anything about it.
Now, before all the believers out there decide that I can’t dismiss the worldview Christianity asserts without examining the Bible and assessing its claims, let me assure you that what you’re saying is horseshit. I can dismiss the claims of Christianity with the very same ease that I might dismiss someone asserting that Shutterfly from My Little Pony is the one true God. I don’t need to study the My Little Pony Universe to dismiss the claim as absurd. Sorry, Pony lovers.
The Bible is nonsense.
Just like I wouldn’t waste my time debating whether or not Paw Patrol was prophetic, I’m not about to do the same with the Bible, which I see as equally nonsensical. Well, maybe not equally. I mean, if you think about it, dogs definitely communicate with us and they’d do about anything to rescue their loved ones. That makes Paw Patrol way more believable than a benevolent, omnipotent, all-knowing god who sends plagues, causes genocide, is okay with slavery and who communicates with us through burning bushes and the occasional appearance on toast. But that’s just my opinion.
It’s never been relevant for me.
I never had to find the holes in the story to dig my way out of indoctrination. I was lucky, I have incredible respect for people who had to do that. I know it’s not an easy thing to do, to tear down your entire worldview and to be brave enough to absorb new information. Exposing yourself to uncomfortable truths is terrifying. I just never had to do it with respect to the Bible. No one ever tried to make me believe the Bible was true. Not until I started writing this blog, anyway. I don’t debate the Bible because it’s irrelevant to me. Completely fucking irrelevant.
It legitimizes the claims, in a way.
Think about it for a second: we wouldn’t sit down and debate with someone who approached us in the grocery store and assured us that broccoli is from planet Gimlor and was sent to earth with trackers in it so that the Gimlorians could understand our poop habits. Why debate someone with an even more ridiculous claim that the god who made everything knocked up his own mom so he could sacrifice himself to himself to subvert a rule he put in place? Seems like a giant waste of time to me.
B-b-but GM! How will you prove to all the Christians that their worldview is false if you don’t debate the Bible?
My answer to that is simple: I won’t. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind about a damned thing. I am just here to provide a space for the godless to be their godless selves amongst like-minded people. Besides, I have, in the course of doing what I do, changed a few minds and I didn’t have to debate the Bible to do it.
So, tell me little ones, do you debate the Bible with believers? Why or why not? Let me know in the comments.
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I agree with your assessment.
The only time I will discuss the bible is when I deal with a literalist. When one takes the bible literally, they leave themselves open to much criticism, for the simple reason, the god of the bible is a complete monster.
How can a theist possible worship a monster that commits genocide, regularly. He is misogynistic, condones slavery and rape. He promotes incest and hatred and commits all kinds of atrocities.
My argument here is simple: How can you worship such a monster?
@Mark I have the same exact struggle understanding it!
I do engage with Christians, both with my blog posts and in the comments. As you can imagine, I don't have much expectation to change many minds, but I enjoy it. I also respect other approaches like your creating a forum for like-minded atheists.
I would believe the debates are on morality in the bible. Correct? That is, there is no debate that the bible is a good representation of what certain ancient nomads believed. Before engaging in minutia debate, start at the beginning. Look up the Euthyphro Dilemma. It starts with Socrates, and is shared by Plato. It presents a true dilemma for the Bible believer, as there is no answer to solve the question. I have used this to shut down a Bible discussion, that went nowhere fast.
On morality in the Bible:
*Are right actions good because god commands them?
,,,or,,,,
*Are right actions commanded by god because they are good?
No matter which answer someone chooses, there is a no answer that cannot be logically refuted.
If you would like to see a great video, look up Crash Course Philosophy #33 Divine Command Theory.
https://youtu.be/wRHBwxC8b8I
@chewtoy
If one determines their morality by obediently following the words of a person or a deity, or anything, for that matter, does not mean one is making moral decisions. It is simply following orders, like a dog being ordered to get off a couch.
Here's the thing, when a xian claims morals from a god, and further say, they cannot trust their own sense of morality, causes another dilemma for them.
This means, they cannot even claim their gods ARE morally correct. How can they possibly know, when their own moral judgment is broken, by admission? If their moral compass is broke, this means they don't KNOW right from wrong. It then follows, they cannot possibly understand if the 'moral' dictates of their gods are good or bad.
And, if one takes a simple read of the bible, we can easily prove that their god is nothing but a moral thug that uses threats and murder and cruel punishments to get his way. The question then becomes, why? Why do you worship a god that condones slavery and rape? Why are you in favour of misogyny and incest?
Bottom line is, how can one possibly rationalize these atrocities and still claim their deities are moral?
@Mark Mac Donald
Thank you. However, I am unclear how your response is different than the Euthyphro Dilemma I suggested as a response. They sound somewhat similar. I am unclear why you are explaining the dilemma to me. Is what you explained to me different than the Euthyphro Dilemma? They sound similar, if not the same. My suggestion is to set up the scope of the debate with my two bullets.
@chewtoy
lol, you may very well be right since I have never heard of the Euthyphro Dilemma.
So.....never mind!
I try to avoid logical debates with adherents to the bible, because of the doctrine that faith must be into something unknown. I will occasionally point out that they claim to believe in an all powerful extra-dimensional being about which they know nothing it hasn't told them and that they have no way to verify either that it was honest or that it doesn't just eat their souls when they die, yet they do not evidence the existential terror and desperation such a belief would merit. I just enjoy watching them redirect or ignore it every time. I don't know if that would have helped me find the truth when I was a theist or not. I do still appreciate the people who tried to reach me in those days.
I belong to a Facebook atheist group and it seems odd to me that many of them spend a lot of time discussing Christianity and the Bible as though their atheism is specifically in opposition to Christianity. Personally I just don't feel any need to either mock or disprove the Bible. It's not worth the time or energy. My preferred response to anyone who wants to talk about religion is, "I'm not interested. I don't believe in magical thinking."
Teaching that shit to children is child abuse and religion needs to die.
I only mention the bible when a theist tries to use it, as evidence or as righteousness.
Then, I am compelled to pint out, what a douchebag their gods are.
Everything you want in a douchebag, is found in the bible, and it is called god
Religion should be like alcohol and tobacco. You must be 21 to participate.
Imagine how long religion would last with this rule in place.